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« Year of the Presidents - 2008? Nope, 1920. | Main | Want some more controversy? »

January 07, 2008

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» Some myths and facts about israel from Soccer Dad
Israel Matzav has a nice roundup of links demonstrating the Palestinian culpability in their own misfortune in 1948. (See also the American Thinker. Both via memeorandum.) For a relevant article see Benny Morris's Reign of Error by Efraim Karsh. Dennis... [Read More]

Comments

bruce

Israel meant to sink Liberty with all hands and and blame Egypt,thus drawing the US in on it's side.Israeli policy makers had that in mind as far back as the 1950's with Operation Susannah as but one example.
Behold the US is at war with one billion Muslims in the 21st century!!

One thing never mentioned is Israel’s *cost to the American Taxpayer.A figure bandied about is $10 million per day! Yeah,right!!! Creative accounting I would say. The 2006 Lebanon war saw Israel’s forces receiving emergency supplies of aviation fuel and Precision munitions out of European US Pentagon stores.Read :US taxpayer picks up an extra tab for Israel.More recent Gaza attack,a secret shipload on replacement munitions was rushed to finish the onslaught.Yup, US taxpayer gets tab.
If one wants to look back at something called the Sinai II agreements:Israel is GAURANTEED oil supplies by the United States. So the meter is always running.
No strings ever attached,How SWEEEET ‘TIS.

*According to the Christian Science Monitor,the cost of Israel to the American TAXpayer has been over $1.6 TRILLION since 1973.http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html

Believer

I guess I simply have too much to do making sure that I am right with God to point fingers and look for conspiracy theories everywhere. It is easy to find blame in the actions of others. And to some extent we are doomed to repeat history if we are not aware of it. However, if we are more concerned with OUR walk with God, we won't have to worry about repitition of others mistakes. It's called non-judgment. We should all try a bit of it.

James Walke

Lavon Affair, King David Hotel Bombing, USS LIBERTY

All were Deliberate, False Flag attacks to be used by Israel as a pretext to expand their wars & unleash their attack pit bull, in the USA.

Similar to the Gulf of Tonkin, which we all know now, never happened, but yet was used by the Pentagon to escalate Vietnam.

Ken

Apparently another mass grave of Egyptian soldiers was recently found. This one is near El Arish:
http://egyptianpows.net/2008/01/10/more-updates-about-the-new-sheikh-zowaid-mass-grave/

No information yet as to whether or not any of these graves contain the reamins of executed POWs, but residents of the area claim they were POWs.

Ken

How timely, I just found this two-day old article, from an Egyptian news source, about a recent mass grave finding.

http://egyptianpows.net/2008/01/05/a-possible-egyptian-pows-mass-grave-in-eilat/

Note: Eilat is nowhere near El Arish; thus, USS Liberty would not have been in position to intercept UHF or VHF communications in that area, but may have intercepted HF communications to or from Eilat.

Ken

Re: Claims about mass execution of Egyptian POWs by the IDF during 1967 war.

I've done a bit more research on this and found, from various Israeli news sources (perhaps biased?), and found claims that there were scattered cases of a few POW executions during the Six Day War, but no evidence has surfaced to support claims of large numbers of POWs being executed. On the other hand, the Egyptians claim to have found mass graves, but I could not find photographs or other evidence to support this claim. Also, it appears that this type of thing occurred during other Arab-Israeli wars as well, on both sides.

Admittedly, I haven't followed or greatly researched this aspect of the Six Day War, thus, I don't have information to prove Bamford claims wrong or correct on this point, but it appears he was wrong.

Anyway, based on the lack of evidence, I retract my claim that the Egyptians found mass graves and there being an admission from an IDF officer about the execution of a large number of POWs.

Ken

Another correction from a previous comment: the UN ambassador's name was "Goldberg," not "Goldberger."

Ken

In a previous comment, I stated: "...the aircraft came from Hastor Field...". I meant to write: "...the aircraft came from Hatzor Field..." In other words, I misspelled the name of the airfield.

Ken

Believer: Hostile tone? Folks who find the evidence and facts I present disturbing or against their beliefs, then they may view my tone as hostile. Admittedly, I sarcastically referred to Mr. Cristol as "defense attorney Cristol", but he has only himself to blame. It's Mr. Cristol who has set himself up as being an expert, and willfully published half-truths and a few outright lies.

As to Bamford, I addressed the points made about him in a previous comment.

Laura: Actually, I have not made up my mind about whether the attack was premediated or or not, but I know the difference between right and wrong, and how to distinguish facts from fiction.

Your belief that I somehow hate Israel is wrong. I don't hate Israel, or anybody who lives in Israel. If it had been the UK that attacked the ship, I would be just as interested in seeking the truth, and exposing those who distort the truth.

Ultimately, the evidence speaks for itself. Whether or not the ship was known or unidentified, the attack with deadly weapons was willful, reckless and wanton, and resulted in the death of 34 American citizens; i.e., 34 counts of murder. But considering that LBJ was sending Americans to die in Vietnam by the thousands, the wrongful death of 34 was minor by comparison -- an annoying situation that was quickly swept under the rug, etc...

Laura

Hey ken, you worthless troll, you have obviously made up your mind and don't want to be confused with facts. Screw you and all like-minded bigots. Your blind obssesive hatred of Israel will never allow you to accept the truth. It is simply a waste of time to debate the likes of you.

Believer

My question is more related to the hostile tone of the responses. I do not understand why one would feel the need to be snotty and rude in the defense of their position rather than simply defend the position in a tone of imparting genuine information. The tone of the responses makes me wonder what axe the author may have to grind. I also note that at no time does the responder deal with the fact that Mr. Bramford lied. Doesn't that cast doubt on his entire position? It certainly does to me.

Ken

In one of attorney Cristol's "facts" -- after the one claiming the IDF had no clue the ship was in the area, he states: "A routine Israel Navy reconnaissance flight at dawn on June 8 sighted Liberty at about 6:00 A.M. steaming southeasterly and south more than 70 miles further west of El Arish."

Beside contradicting his initial, previously stated "fact", this statement is interesting because it contains outright misinformation. If you plot the position of USS Liberty, at 6:00 A.M., on a map, you will find that the distance between the ship and El Arish was about 40 nautical miles, northwest of El Arish, not 70 miles west of El Arish as Cristol claims. This position is only about 10 miles north of where the ship was torpedoed, and about 19 miles north of the initial attack position. In other words, at 6:00 A.M., USS Liberty wasn't as far away from her patrol area as Cristol leads you to believe; i.e., she was well on her way to entering the neighborhood and known to the IDF.

On the other hand, the 6:00 A.M. position was about 70 nautical miles west of Ashdod, Israel -- the same distance the initial attack position was from Ashdod; albeit southwest, not west of Ashdod. (Note: Purportedly, the torpedo boats sailed out of Ashdod Harbor, and the attack aircraft came from Hastor Field, southeast of Ashdod.)

Mr. Cristol's book about the USS Liberty attack is peppered with this type of misinformation and half-truths. The most glaring of which are fake gun camera images that don't match the gun camera images in the IDF History Report -- all of which is understandable because the images in the IDF History Report clearly do not show USS Liberty (i.e., they too are fake.)

As I stated before, if you take a bit of time to check under the topsoil of the landscape of innocence that Mr. Cristol paints, you will find lots of garbage -- and a few dead bodies -- that betrays its innocence.

Ken

Attorney Cristol was a US Navy pilot, but not a fighter pilot; although, that's what may people believe. There is no evidence that he ever directly engaged in air-to-ground, air-to-sea, or air-to-air combat during the Korean war, nor does he make this claim. (It goes to show that attorney Cristol is, indeed, a skillful wordsmith when it comes to planting bogus information in the mind of the reader.)

I agree that Bamford doesn't always get his "facts" correct; and, likely, he has his own "axe to grind." But Bamford's statement about Egyptian POW's being murdered during the Six Day War was proven by the relatively recent discovery of mass graves, in the Sinai, and the admission of at least one IDF officer involved. Nonetheless, I find doubtful Bamford's theory that this was motive for the attack.

In my opinion, a more likely motive, if the attack was premeditated, is that the GOI did not want information leaking out that its military preemptively invaded Egypt (i.e., fired the first shot), and that it was definitely going to expand the war to capture the Golan Heights. The USG was unhappy with the whole situation, and sternly warned the GOI to not expand the war. When this type of thing happened in the past, during the 1956 war, the USG forced the GOI to back-off, and leave the Sinai. This was only 11 years later, and that memory was still fresh in the minds of the GOI's military leaders. The GOI believed that capturing the Sinai and the Golan Heights was paramount for its security and survival. I believe the GOI was willing to do whatever it took to ensure accomplishment of this goal -- even if it involved harshly ending the perceived interference of an American signal intelligence collection ship in the area.

soccerdad

I'm not going to through all of Ken's response, but Judge Cristol in no way denies that Israel had placed the Liberty near Egypt prior to the attack.

However naval operation were run in such a way that when shifts changed, previous intelligence was considered out of date and discarded.

Judge Cristol brought expertise from a number of fields to analyze and painstakingly recreate the Liberty incident, including his own experience as a fighter pilot during the Korean war.

He makes no bones about his sympathy for Israel, but that doesn't invalidate his analysis. Maybe someone should be asking the likes of James Bamford how his distaste for Israel drove his analysis of the Liberty incident. Bamford resurrects a libel that Israeli soldiers committed a massacre of Egyptian troops to provide a motive for the attack.

Ken

After spending several years researching and studying the USS Liberty attack, I've uncovered revealing information -- on both sides of the fence. See results of my research at: ussliberty-inquiry.us

Here's quick feedback on A. J. Cristol's comments, using his first "fact" as an example of the way he presents (distorts) information in a manner more like a criminal defense attorney than an historian.

Attorney Cristol would like you to believe that the Israel Defense Force (IDF) had no clue about any US Navy ship being in the area or near the war zone on June 8, 1967. This is simply not true, based on information presented in the IDF's History Report about the attack and other sources.

It's true that several days before June 8, 1967, UN ambassador Goldberger reported no US Naval vessels were near the war zone (a zone that was never defined or declared by either Egypt or Israel). At the time of the statement, it was a true statement -- USS Liberty and the ships of the Sixth Fleet were hundreds of miles away from the "war zone." During the early morning hours of June 8, 1967, USS Liberty approached near the war zone (14 nautical miles north of Egypt's Sinai peninsula coastline) to peacefully perform her signal intelligence collection mission. According to the IDF History Report, as early morning daylight visited USS Liberty, so did an Israeli Air Force (IAF) reconnaissance aircraft. It spotted and reported the ship. By midmorning, the IDF had identified the ship as USS Liberty, a lightly-armed, non-combat type ship, configured as a signal intelligence collection platform. According to testimony and message exhibits in the US Naval Court of Inquiry, USS Liberty was visited several times, throughout the day and before the attack, by IAF aircraft. In other words, on June 8, 1967, as the war was quickly coming to an end in the Sinai, the IDF knew that at least one US Navy ship -- a signal intelligence collector named USS Liberty -- was in the area.

Given the above, it becomes clear that attorney Cristol's statement, "...it seems more logical for the Israelis to have assumed that a haze gray warship...was an enemy vessel..", is pure nonsense.

Also of note, you will find that attorney Cristol constantly uses the word "warship" to describe USS Liberty, in an attempt to place a vision of a combat type ship into the reader's mind. Technically, it's true that USS Liberty was a "warship" (i.e., a lightly armed US Navy ship), but she appeared exactly like a converted cargo ship, with many highly visible antennas on her decks, and four 0.50 caliber machine guns. In fact, the US Navy considered ship's like USS Liberty as "auxiliary" or support type ships, not combat type ships.

Anyway, as you can see, when one digs through the shallow topsoil of the neat landscape attorney Cristol presents in his arguments, you will find quickly that the soil below is filled with lots of garbage that attorney Cristol and his "client," the IDF, would not like you to see.

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