I attend the Vineyard Boise and today I had the distinct pleasure of having a pastoral staff member ask from the pulpit for the congregation to NOT turn off our cell phones...but instead to text him some info.
Wow, think of that....then it was announced that the Senior Pastor (Tri Robinson) would be having a voice in the blogging community. http://pleaseforgivejames.wordpress.com/: It's a goofy name for a blog but what's new?
So I expect to be visiting it regularly and would invite any visitors to my site to visit it, as well.
By the way, yesterday's posting on this blog was directly impacted by Matthew chapter 9. The more I see what didn't REALLY occur through the religious right, the more I realize how the "new wine" of God REALLY DOES burst through "old wineskins" of yesterday.
No kidding, when I'm taking folks to the Middle East I show them how people there STILL use animal stomachs as wine containers ("skins") ...and how AFTER the wine ceases to be NEW, the lining of the wineskin grows cracked. Whenever additional (and therefore NEW) wine is poured into the "skin", it cracks and splits open, or even bursts open.
Jesus kinda knew what he was talking about, huh? It's a shame it takes so long for us to "get it".
No wonder so few people with no church background REALLY choose to visit a Sunday service - in any one of the many neighborhood churches that are everywhere. Entering many of those churches is like entering a time warp... on a magic shag carpet, no less...hmmm.
It's like it's...often old wineskins. And that breaks God's heart. He is fresh and alive. So is His message.
Den
And by the way... The exact quote on the 70 times 7 incident is as follows: "Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, 'Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?' Jesus answered,'I tell you, not seven times, but seventy times seven.'" Matthew 18: 21-22
At no times is repentence required for forgiveness to be given from one man to another. In order to receive forgiveness from God, we must repent. But, since we aren't God, we cannot require repentence before we grant forgiveness. I intend to stay in my pay grade and not take His. I've seen His job and I don't want it. I am wholly under-qualified.
Posted by: Believer | February 14, 2009 at 08:52 PM
I still turn to Jesus's example. He knew at the last supper that Judas was in the act of betraying Him. Judas had already agreed to turn Jesus over to the Pharisees. Did Jesus expel Judas? Did Jesus condemn, judge or confront Judas? Did Jesus expel Judas, even though Jesus knew Judas was stealing from the disciples? The answer to all of these questions is a resounding "NO." What did Jesus do? He washed Judas's feet and served Him right along with the "righteous" disciples (who were not so righteous either, it turns out.) Jesus is to be our example, who we strive to be. If we begin to expel or shun sinners from church, we will only have churches filled with Pharisees. Church services are not for the perfect but for the sinner (being that we all are one.) The perfect don't need any more help because they are perfect. Thank God no one in my church is perfect, not even my pastors. I would feel very uncomfortable there. And the final point to ponder is this: The example given is that of those living in sin, or homosexuals. But God views all sin the same. So we would have to expel the gossip, the tax-cheater, and the liar. Since I have yet to meet someone who hasn't lied (and probably will do it again, if only by omission), our churches would be empty. And church is not contained to four walls, but is within us. WE are the church. And we are not perfect or without sin. Some of us continue to sin by simply not doing as prompted by the Holy Spirit. Some break one of the written ones. But the fact is that none of us is perfect and therefore, none of us is in the position to judge. "Any without sin may cast the first stone." NONE of us qualify to throw any stones.
Posted by: Believer | February 14, 2009 at 08:43 PM
2 Thess 3 Is this a letter to elders only? Paul repeatedly uses the demand command imperative to obey him. Obviously it is ridiculus to assert that this passage is for elders only. The entire church body was to withdraw from an unrepent brother. The entire body was to be watchfull of on the alert for afore mentioned errant brother. just how is the church body or the elders to become aware so as to take action? Evidently they will get no help from you. No scripture, no God breathed utterance is of lesser value than another. They are all equall. All have to work together for God is not the author of confusion. Is the Holy Spirit is teaching to defy Paul? The Church is built upon the foundation of the Apostles and the word is not for private interpretation.
Posted by: tris miller | February 13, 2009 at 02:31 PM
Great dialog, folks. Keep it comin'!
Den
Posted by: Dennis Mansfield | February 06, 2009 at 11:04 PM
Church discipline is the job for the elders of the church, not the regular congregation. When correction is required by those equipped and called to do so, they are to correct in love. And do not get me started on the so-called American justice system. Evidence has very little to do with the conduct of judges and juries. And you are right, unless you have God in your life, you will judge everything. I am not ignoring any of God's laws. And I will not assume a thing about Jesus because there is enough written that I do not have to assume. I will not read between the lines and interpret what I have the Holy Spirit to teach me and help me discern. That is the entire point of giving our lives over to Him.
Posted by: Believer | February 06, 2009 at 08:31 AM
NEITHER DO I CONDEMN YOU, NOW GO AND SIN NO MORE.
The command to go and sin no more assumes that Jesus had judged her to be practicing sin. You can judge without condemning. It is quite impossible to live in this world without judging. under both Mosaic law and American law judges and juries determine guilt and innocence based upon evidence, by their fruit. Then and now the matters of the heart have no direct effect on the trial. Under Mosaic Law failure to report a transgression made you as guilty as the transgressor. We cannot pick and choose which commands of God to ignore. Chirch disciline is a command.
Posted by: tris miller | February 06, 2009 at 08:09 AM
Forgiving is not being loosy goosey. And I refuse to take something on that God has not tasked me to do. We are not to judge because we do not know the hearts of man. Only God does. And how do you know that the circumstances someone is in is not part and parcel of God's grand plan for that person's life? The sword of the Bible is for the powers and principalities, the towel of servitude is for the man. I would rather live under God's grace and mercy than His wrath. And personally, because I know my past, I will not bring the judgment of God upon myself by judging someone else. I don't have to love the behavior, but I do have to "love my neighbor as myself." The two greatest commandments from Jesus said nothing about judgment but everything about love. We have enough judgment and condemnation in this world from one to another. Perhaps it is time to try to do it the way that Jesus told us.
Posted by: Believer | February 05, 2009 at 10:40 AM
As I read the follow up it seemed very familiar to me. Oh yes, it sounds just like the Corithians. In Chapter 5 they too were proad that they did not force others to obey our Holy and righteous God either. They too were puffed up with delusions of moral superiority for being so broadminded and accepting and nonjudgmental. Imagine how stunned they were when The Apostle Paul, called of God, hand picked by Jesus Himself lowered the hammer of JUDGMENT on both them and on the sinning couple. Gee did Paul error? Did Paul sin? Was Paul being a bad christian? May it never be. Paul exhorted us to follow his example. So should we follow the corithians or obey Gods servant Paul? Obviously you have joined sides with the Corinthians.
According to Jesus in the 7 times 70 incident the offender first repented then also asked for forgiveness. Forgiveness man to man was not without limitations and guidelines. Nor is the forgiveness of sins for salvation itself. That would be the folly of universalism. The Bride of Christ is to be Holy spotless blameless, not some loosy goosy Jezebeel. She was mentioned in Revelations. Did not the Lorda anger burn because the church she was in had not confronted and disciplined her? the Lords anger burned against them because they chosen to tolerate her sins.
Posted by: tris miller | February 04, 2009 at 02:56 PM
"If you love Me you will keep my commandments" not "if you love Me, you will force others to keep my commandments." It is not our job to condemn. If we spent half the time cleaning our own house (our Spiritual house) as we did pointing out and judging others, we would have no concern for where we were headed. And, we would understand that "Our struggle is not against flesh and blood (other people, whether believers or not,) but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." It is God's job to discipline. It is God's job to change our hearts and awaken us to the wrongs we do. It is not my job (and I don't want it!) And how long do you tolerate willful defiance? How many times must we forgive someone who wrongs us? I think Jesus gave us all the answer to both questions in the same lesson. We are so quick to stand up for God when someone does something that we believe is offensive to Him. But I think He is much bigger than I am and certainly doesn't need me to protect Him. He can do that for Himself. I am supposed to stand up for Him in my own life against all attacks from the enemy. But I am not supposed to attack someone else even in defense of God. Jesus didn't and I don't believe I am supposed to either. I am simply not to back away from my beliefs no matter what. That is neither an offensive nor a defensive stance. It is just to stand.
Whether correct or not, that is the place that God has led me to so far.
Posted by: Believer | February 03, 2009 at 07:22 PM
Ok, all well and good. But all scripture is God breathed and every verse is of equall worth.
Were in all this is the teaching of "be ye holy even as I am Holy"
Or the teachings of Matt. 18:15 or 1 Cor. 5 or 2 Tess. 3 corcerning the most neglected command, to enforce church discipline, in love. In love for the believer gone astray. In love of the health of the entire body. In love for God " if you love Me you will keep my commandments."
The Luke Warm Liberals are so proud to never judge or condemn anyone or any sin except the sin of exposing and naming and Biblically judging sin(s). Yes lets reach out to, for example, the practicing homosexual couples or hetero-unwed couples, but how long do you tolerate willfull defiance when they refuse to repent?
Posted by: tris miller | February 03, 2009 at 12:12 PM